Norris Finalists

MatchesMalone · 04-25-2010, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erik Karlsson

I can't help but wonder what Weber can achieve with some decent forwards ahead of him. All they have is Hornqvist making a huge impact.

I mean...51 points is their highest..LOOOL! And they are giving Chicago their money's worth!

Also those 51 points were by Hornqvist in lesser games than Sullivan. Horn is also a rookie!

Dude, Nashville has one of the deepest forward groups in the NHL. Erat, Sullivan, Arnott, Hornqvist, Legwand, Ward, Dumont, Wilson... The reason they didn't have any players with a lot of points is because they are such a defense-oriented team and because the offense is so spread out. At least 3 of their forwards, Sullivan, Arnott and Dumont have scored 70+ points before. But if they're ever going to be a Stanley Cup contender they will need one or two real impact scorers to put them over the top. Lucky for them, they might just have those 2 if Colin Wilson develops to his full potential and if Radulov comes back to the NHL.

MatchesMalone · 04-25-2010, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshLind

Is Keith really better than Green defensively, or do they play different styles in different systems? Because Green had 3 times as many hits as Keith did, in seven fewer games, and was +18 higher.

Do hits make good defense? Maybe Green is better defensively than I realize, but how does anybody know if he never plays defense? A large part of the reason his +/- is so high is because he is always on the ice with Ovechkin and Backstrom when they are scoring tons of goals. Granted, he is a large part of the reason they score so much, but how often do you see Green out against the other team's top line? Keith is every game, and he still has a ton of points and real good +/-.

GooSsens · 04-25-2010, 05:09 PM

You do have to take in consideration what team Green played for too. I don't think his +18 was completely indicative of how amazing he played. I think he is great offensively, but defensively meh. So he hits.

I would prefer Keith or Doughty to get it.

Alfie11 · 04-25-2010, 06:19 PM

Green won't blow you away with his defense, but he's solid and unerrated in that aspect of his game.

JoshLind · 04-25-2010, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocent_bystander

Do hits make good defense? Maybe Green is better defensively than I realize, but how does anybody know if he never plays defense? A large part of the reason his +/- is so high is because he is always on the ice with Ovechkin and Backstrom when they are scoring tons of goals. Granted, he is a large part of the reason they score so much, but how often do you see Green out against the other team's top line? Keith is every game, and he still has a ton of points and real good +/-.

Green isn't always on the ice with Ovechkin, and he actually does play against other teams' top lines: DobberHockey NHL Line Combinations

Quote:

24.51% EV 52 GREEN,MIKE - 55 SCHULTZ,JEFF
23.49% EV 74 CARLSON,JOHN - 3 POTI,TOM
10.21% EV 77 CORVO,JOSEPH - 26 MORRISONN,SHAONE
6.86% EV 77 CORVO,JOSEPH - 89 SLOAN,TYLER
6.42% PP 52 GREEN,MIKE

So he's out on the powerplay often - well, so is Keith. They both spend time killing penalties too. No, hits aren't everything, but they're a big part of the game. To think that Green is laying out hits three times more frequently than Keith is, speaks numbers. How exactly is it that Green is hitting so often if he's always shooting the puck?

I figure Bruce Boudreau knows what he's doing... if he's using Green as a defenceman and not a forward, there's got to be a reason. People seem to love attributing the successes of Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom, and Green to each other, but if you do that, than somewhere along you've got to realize that each individual must be pretty damn talented.

So Keith gets partnered with Seabrook and plays a lot behind Toews, Kane, and Hossa. Why's that? I'm guessing it's because he's a pretty good hockey player.

Have a read here: Mike Green: Quiet Improvement - Japers' Rink

MatchesMalone · 04-26-2010, 05:54 AM

My replies are in red...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoshLind

Green isn't always on the ice with Ovechkin, and he actually does play against other teams' top lines: DobberHockey NHL Line Combinations

What does that have to do with anything? It shows how often he plays and with which defensive pair. Nowhere there does it show how often he plays against other teams top forwards.

So he's out on the powerplay often - well, so is Keith. Not as much as Green, not sure what that has to do with anything though. They both spend time killing penalties too. Like I said before, Green is often out against team's secondary powerplay units, or their fatigued first units, Keith/Seabrook is almost always out against the top unit No, hits aren't everything, but they're a big part of the game. To think that Green is laying out hits three times more frequently than Keith is, speaks numbers. Speaks numbers to what? Keith plays a different style. Personally, I would prefer to see a defenseman play sound positionally and try to break up a play with a poke-check or well placed stick or break up a pass or block a shot than risk taking himself out of position with a hit. Granted, if you land a good hit you can stop a rush in its tracks, but its just the riskier play. And besides, Seabrook does most of the hitting on that pair How exactly is it that Green is hitting so often if he's always shooting the puck?I'm not sure where I said he was always shooting the puck, but ok, whatever you say. I'm not an extremist like you, I understand that - while he does focus his game towards offense - he is, in fact, a defenseman and spends a lot of time playing defense.

I figure Bruce Boudreau knows what he's doing... if he's using Green as a defenceman and not a forward, there's got to be a reason. I'm sure he does, he is a very good coach so far as I can tell, but he didn't decide to make Green a defenseman. Don't try to oversimplify things like that, obviously he is good enough at what he does that he should be a defenseman and not a forward, don't be one of those idiots who thinks that all offensive defenseman should be forwards, there is so much more to it than that People seem to love attributing the successes of Ovechkin, Semin, Backstrom, and Green to each other, but if you do that, than somewhere along you've got to realize that each individual must be pretty damn talented. Well, I'm glad you're not talking about me, I very much attributed much of Ovchekin's and Backstrom's offensive output to Green, because he is often out on the ice with them, and who are they most often out against? The other teams checking lines. It is impressive of the group of them offensively that they score as much as they do under such circumstances, but its not saying a whole lot about their defensive capabilities if those are the guys they are defending.

So Keith gets partnered with Seabrook and plays a lot behind Toews, Kane, and Hossa. Why's that? I'm guessing it's because he's a pretty good hockey player.

Have a read here: Mike Green: Quiet Improvement - Japers' Rink

I don't know of any site that shows a percentage of a players shifts based on what opposition he is matched up against, if you do, feel free to show me. But from what I've watched, I see a lot of Keith and Seabrook in a shutdown role. Chicago's forwards are so deep, they mix and match their lines a lot so they don't care so much about what forwards are playing against who. Washington, on the other hand, seems to care less about having a defensive pair out shutting down the opposition's top line as much as they do about having Green-Schultz out with Semin's line or Ovechkin and Backstrom's line and assuming they will simply overpower the opposition. Whether they are out against the other team's checking lines or scoring line, its more of a matter of the other team's coach trying to match up with Washington's forwards than it is Green playing a shutdown role.

Now, I'm no professional, and I'm just going off what I've seen from watching games this year, but you can take my word on one thing, I watch A LOT of hockey, and this year, that has included a fair amount of Washington and Chicago games.

JoshLind · 04-26-2010, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocent_bystander

I don't know of any site that shows a percentage of a players shifts based on what opposition he is matched up against, if you do, feel free to show me. But from what I've watched, I see a lot of Keith and Seabrook in a shutdown role. Chicago's forwards are so deep, they mix and match their lines a lot so they don't care so much about what forwards are playing against who. Washington, on the other hand, seems to care less about having a defensive pair out shutting down the opposition's top line as much as they do about having Green-Schultz out with Semin's line or Ovechkin and Backstrom's line and assuming they will simply overpower the opposition. Whether they are out against the other team's checking lines or scoring line, its more of a matter of the other team's coach trying to match up with Washington's forwards than it is Green playing a shutdown role.

Now, I'm no professional, and I'm just going off what I've seen from watching games this year, but you can take my word on one thing, I watch A LOT of hockey, and this year, that has included a fair amount of Washington and Chicago games.

I had a site that DOES track quality of competition, but for some reason the links aren't working on it today: BEHIND THE NET: Hockey Analysis and Statistics

I think one thing you might be forgetting when assessing Green's defensive play is his ability to keep the puck out of his end. He puts up defenseman-like numbers in hits, blocked shots, and +/-, and forward-like numbers in points and shots. It's his second consecutive Norris nomination, and you think it's so strange that he'd get my vote? Now, I'm no member of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association, but most of them probably see at least as much hockey as you and I do.

I just got through an interesting article on the subject, and I'd like to quote this from it:

Quote:

If Mike Green is not as good as Duncan Keith defensively, then why does Green have:

- a better +/- overall(+37) than Keith(+22)
- a better +/- at home(+23) than Keith(+13)
- a better +/- on the road(+14) than Keith(+9)
- a better +/- against his own division(+4) than Keith(+3)
- a better +/- against other divisions(+33) than Keith(+19)

In terms of offensive and defensive effectiveness, here are some more numbers:

- Mike Green has been on the ice for the most goals for in the NHL(159) than anyone else, 32 more goals for than Keith(127).
- Green has been on the ice for more power play goals for in the NHL(60) than anyone else, 34 more than Keith(26).
- Green has been on the ice for 81 goals against, 19 less than Keith(100).
- Green has allowed less power play goals against when on the ice(19) than Keith(21).
- Green is the only defenseman in the NHL to average over 1 point per game(1.01). Duncan Keith ranks 2nd(.81pts/game).

- Green has 132 hits, 86 more hits than Keith(48).

- Green has 35 power play points, 19 more than Keith(19).
- Green has 41 points at home, 3 more than Keith(38).
- Green has 34 road points, 4 more than Keith(30).
- Green has 21 points against his own division, 3 more than Keith(18).
- Green has 54 out-of-division points, 4 more than Keith(50).
- Green has a shooting % of 9.5, 5% better than Keith(4.5%).

Before people get out of hand, here are the ice-time figures for both players:

Ice-Time | Green | Keith

Avg TOI/G | 25:26 | 26:38
ES TOI/G | 18:11 | 20:49
SH TOI/G | 2 :09 | 3 :00
PP TOI/G | 5 :05 | 2 :48

A couple caveats to go along with the ice-time numbers;

- Green has played in 7 less games than Keith.
- Green gets twice as much PP ice-time than Keith.
- Green gets 1/3rd less SH ice-time than Keith.
- Green skates 1:12 less per game than Keith.

- Green is relied upon as the Caps power play quarterback, Keith is not.
- Keith is relied upon as the Hawks shorthanded specialist, Green is not.
- Green’s injury caused him to miss out on more points(had he played in all 81 games thus far, he would have 82 points).
- Keith has not missed a Blackhawks game yet this season.
- Keith has also played through the Olympics, Green has not.

Finally, just to show that I am not fully bias, here are some statistical areas where Duncan Keith dominates Mike Green:

- Keith has 47 even-strength points to Green’s 39.
- Keith has 5 short-handed points to Green’s 1.
- Keith has 211 shots to Green’s 201.
- Keith has 58 GiveAways to Green’s 73.

Ironically, the only category where Green and Keith are tied is Takeaways, as they both have 44.

In the end, it comes down to a comparison of the NHL’s two best defensemen in 2009-10.

The case can be made for both of these individuals, yet the arguments are not the same.

Duncan Keith leads with his defensive game first. Relied upon as the Blackhawks shutdown, ice-time eater who can contribute equally effectively at both ends of the ice, nearly better than anyone else on the blue-line, Keith is as close to a young Scott Niedermayer as you can get.

Mike Green leads with his palate of offensive tools. Mike makes it easy to play defense as he is often the one pressuring the other team due to his offense. Green is head and shoulders ahead of the rest when it comes to contributing from the blue line, yet is not necessarily recognized for his defensive play.

Green’s quality defense has quietly flown under the radar as of late, much like how Keith’s offensive production tends to go unnoticed despite its regularity.

JoshLind · 04-26-2010, 03:01 PM

Oh, and how exactly can Mike Green always play with Ovechkin but never against other teams' top lines?